Thursday, March 01, 2012

Metacognition Session #2 Chat Transcript #TLTGOLI 20120221

 David McCurry, TLT Group:Welcome to Session 2 of the Metacognition
Workshop, 2012.
 Lucy MacDonald:Welcome back, Deborah. Remind me again where Excelsior is?
 Lucy MacDonald:Hello, Juanita. Where are you located?
 Lucy MacDonald:David, I have done screen shots, so probably won't use
the sharing screens.
 Juanita Painter:Hello. It's a pleasure to be here. I'm located in
North Carolina.

 David McCurry, TLT Group:Hi Juanita. I am down here in Greenville, SC
 Juanita Painter:Hi David.
 Lucy MacDonald:Welcome, Terry.  Are you in North Carolina too?
 Terry Conry:Hi - I am in Athens, Ohio.
 Juanita Painter:Hi Terry.
 Terry Conry:Hi Juanita.
 Lucy MacDonald:I am in Sarasota, Fl, but my students are about 500
miles away in Jacksonville and one in Maryland.
 Lucy MacDonald:Welcome, Andrea. We are just doing a geography check.
Where are you at?
 Andrea Fernandez:Hello All! I am in North Carolina at North Carolina
A&T State Univerisity.
 Lucy MacDonald:Juanita is also from North Carolina, but not sure if
she's at the same Univ as you, Andrea.
 Andrea Fernandez:Yes, we are at the same university and department.
 David McCurry, TLT Group:(Playing with a new tool at the bottom of the screen)
 David McCurry, TLT Group:Was just wondering if any of our
participants can interact with the little Hands Up tool at the bottom.
 Lucy MacDonald:Welcome Anne.  My middle name is also Anne. Where are you at?
 Lucy MacDonald:Irina, Glad to have you back.
 IrinaIvliyeva, Missouri S&T:Greetings from the sunny Missouri!
Unseasonably warm today - 57F!
 IrinaIvliyeva, Missouri S&T:Lucy, I am happy to be back -  can't wait
to get started!
 Anne Zald:University of Nevada, Las Vegas
 IrinaIvliyeva, Missouri S&T:Steve, I am participating this week at
PASSHE 2012 conference and I have heard   wonderful comments about
your keynote in  New York!
 Lucy MacDonald:Nancy, Welcome back.  Remind me. Do you teach ESL students?
 Steve Gilbert, TLT Group:Homebase Web page for this workshop   Lucy MacDonald: "Helping Students Learn to
Study Why Meta is Betta" Interview TLTG FrLv! March, 2011
 saundra mcguire:Hello Everyone,   Happy Mardi Gras!  :-)
 Lucy MacDonald:Welcome back. Saundra. We are doing a geography check.
Let folks know where you are!
 Deborah Clemens, Excelsior College 2:Hi! This is Frances Webb signing
in as Debbie.
 saundra mcguire:LOVE the Mardi Gras mask!  :-)
 Deborah Clemens, Excelsior College:Instructional Designers and
Faculty members from Excelsior College so we have a few different but
collaborative roles.
 Sharon Aronovitch:Faculty, Graduate Nursing @ Excelsior College
 Steve Gilbert, TLT Group:Homebase Web page for this workshop   Lucy MacDonald: "Helping Students Learn to
Study Why Meta is Betta" Interview TLTG FrLv! March, 2011
 Steve Gilbert, TLT Group:Lucy doesn't sound to me like someone who
lives in Florida and did lots of work in Calif!
 Deborah Clemens, Excelsior College:My parents are from MA so I may be
able to help translate,....
 Deborah Clemens, Excelsior College:; )
 Steve Gilbert, TLT Group:So this is a comment, not a question because
I'm hiding the question mark here in the midst of my ?  text message
 Steve Gilbert, TLT Group:PDFs from Lucy will be avail via links from
Homebase Web page for this workshop
 Kyle Songer & others @ Excelsior College:To protect Debbie from my
comments, this is actually Kyle Songer.  I am very opinionated.
 David McCurry, TLT Group:Welcome Excelsior!
 Kyle Songer & others @ Excelsior College:Thank you.
 Steve Gilbert, TLT Group:LM:   Metacognition (overseeing whether cog.
goal being met) =/= Cognitive Strategies
 Steve Gilbert, TLT Group:LM  "Think Alouds" -  Use them?  know what they are?
 saundra mcguire:I use them all the time, and they're great!
 Kyle Songer & others @ Excelsior College:We design for asynchronous,
so we design in an asynchronous version of think alouds.
 Paula:haven't used them yet
 Andrea Fernandez:Used them in middle school but have not here at
university level.
 IrinaIvliyeva, Missouri S&T:My son is in the 7th grade,  oh boy - I
know how difficult it is get him to really understand the problem!
 Steve Gilbert, TLT Group:Lucy's connection of reading with math
learning was an astonishing idea to me - a former math teacher!  I had
given up on any students ever learning at all from math books!
 Paula:Kyle - would love to learn how you use them - I'm teaching 2
online classes this term
 Betty Hurley-Dasgupta:Hi, it's Betty, Susan, Sue and Michele from
SUNY Empire State College
 Steve Gilbert, TLT Group:Lockhead & Whimbey   ... Think Aloud
Technique;   Problem Solving & Comprehension
 Steve Gilbert, TLT Group:LM - "show your work"   impossible for those
who cannot even verbalize what they are doing, so "think aloud" is key
preparatory step
 Steve Gilbert, TLT Group:LM Strategy:  guide students to serve as
"coach" to peers - listen and write what peer is describing when
reading/doing a math problem or other task
 Paula:Hi all (I never introd myself) - Paula Cancro from The College
of Westchester - White Plains, NY
 Steve Gilbert, TLT Group:LM Strategy:  step 2 - 2 partners swap roles
- each serves as coach alternating
 Andrea Fernandez:Westchester County. I used to live there.
 Paula:@Andrea - hello old neighbor  :-)
 saundra mcguire:?Did you have many students who resisted this approach?
 Steve Gilbert, TLT Group:SWG:   reminds me of the way teaching and
learning works in Aikido martial arts -  demonstration first, then
pairs of learners practice together and coach each other
 Kyle Songer & others @ Excelsior College:Provide a framework for them
and then ask them...
 Steve Gilbert, TLT Group:LM:   Meta-Meta question  "How ask questions
if I don't even know what I don't know"
 Kyle Songer & others @ Excelsior College:does any of these framework
points seem to apply to you?
 Kyle Songer & others @ Excelsior College:do any of these framework...
(grammar correction).
 Joy Mark:that's a hard one; maybe start listing what you do know and
identify gaps--do things hang together?
 Steve Gilbert, TLT Group:LM    "Precision Questioning"  - Dennis
Mathies, Stanford U
 John Zubizarreta:Hi, I'm in the room with unreliable connection and
typing, while I'm in a car.
 Paula:@John - brave man  :-)
 Joy Mark:how is the pdf available? same place as archives?
 Steve Gilbert, TLT Group:
 saundra mcguire:Glad you could join us, John.  AND I'm glad you're
NOT driving!  :-)
 Steve Gilbert, TLT Group:Mathies formed company for "Precision
 Kyle Songer & others @ Excelsior College:Hi John, I aplaud you for
stretching the boundaries of technology.  This is how we get a
solution that meets our needs instead of adpating our needs to meet
the technology.
 Steve Gilbert, TLT Group:[How do we know where JohnZ really is?  Even
who it is? - related to our continuing topic of
identity/reality/simulation "Ender's Test")
 Kyle Songer & others @ Excelsior College:Thank you for the links
Steve, very helpful.
 Steve Gilbert, TLT Group:We'll try to add any new links that get
shared here to the Homebase Web page for this workshop
 John Zubizarreta:The links will help,Steve. Maybe it' s my mobile
connection, but the slide on my screen is scambled.
 Steve Gilbert, TLT Group:?Do different academic disciplines tend to
favor or find more useful certain kinds of questions?
 John Zubizarreta:What I find interesting here is that Lucy's types of
questions are designed to help students get beyond just uncoverying
facts or the "right answer." This is what leads to metacognitive
 Steve Gilbert, TLT Group:LM:  Metacognitive strategy is to give list
of sample questions, categories of questions to students to enable
them to ask questions more easily, quickly, effectively
 Steve Gilbert, TLT Group:[Nasty side comment re kinds of questions in
economics:  based on recent years experience,  should anyone be
claiming to know causes and effects in economics?  heh heh]
 Kyle Songer & others @ Excelsior College:hahaha
 Steve Gilbert, TLT Group:?Are you suggesting taht students ask these
questions of themselves?  peers? teachers?
 Kyle Songer & others @ Excelsior College:Wow.
 Steve Gilbert, TLT Group:LM   workshop "handout" was 450pp!   I'm not
sure I'd call that a "handout"
 John Zubizarreta:Steve, knowing cause and effect doesn't necessarily
point to having a grasp of "meaning," which is what comes from
reflection  and self-analysis or inquiry.
 Steve Gilbert, TLT Group:?Should students be guided to ask DIFFERENT
kinds of questions of themselves vs. of their peers vs. of their
 saundra mcguire:Helping students understand that all questions are
helpful is quite useful.  Even the loweer level closed questions are
helpful to uncover what students don't know.
 Steve Gilbert, TLT Group:?Do you have a subgroup of jsut a few
specific questions or kinds of questions that you recommend to
students who are at the very beginnig of asking questions?
 Steve Gilbert, TLT Group:?Should some students write a few questions
on a card or as a text msg to themselves in prep for a class session
to help them actually ask something
 saundra mcguire:We suggest that they "preview" the text instead of
"reading it",  And them come up with questions that they want the
lecture to answer.
 John Zubizarreta:Sometimes, I invite students on an online forum to
design their own questions about both content material and their own
learning process at the time of posting the questions. This gives me a
sense of where they are with content and with their learning
 Nancy Calsolaro Smulsky:I ask students to reflect on what they have
learned and provide me with a specific example of how they will use
this new knowledge.
 IrinaIvliyeva, Missouri S&T:I use the grammar mathod - breaking up
the sentence into parts and creating diagrams  connected by arrows
 saundra mcguire:Also, I like to have students ask themselves:  "Could
I teach this information to someone else?"  If the answer is no, they
know they have more work to do to understand it.
 Lucy MacDonald:John, I hope to get to the slides on making Bloom
blossom for questioning strategies.
 Kyle Songer & others @ Excelsior College:Asking students to identify
a reference point about where the current topic fits in their life or
recent studies.
 Frances Webb, Excelsior College:I find that I must help them
understand the concept of "reflection."
 Lucy MacDonald:Irene, I love mind mapping and use it extensively,
both on butcher paper and with software- Inspiration.
 Paula:I'm thinking in an online class - I could have students lead a
discussion point based on readings
 IrinaIvliyeva, Missouri S&T:peer tutoring work great as well. Analogy
- e.g. video gaming strategies and learning  strategoes (repetition,
trial  and error,  and how to transition to the higher level  skills)
 Kyle Songer & others @ Excelsior College:Then ask them if they had it
their way, what gaps in their knowledge do they feel there are and how
would they like to fill them in.
 Barbara Millis:Minute papers, focused listing, directed paraphrasing,
application cards, etc.  Visible quizzes using flascards (ABCD)--the
poor man's clicker, group quizzes using If-Fat instruments, etc.
 Betty Hurley-Dasgupta:From Empire State: 1.) think backward from a
goal; 2.)after a second assignment, reflect on how their writing has
changed from the first assignment and how process of writing has
 John Zubizarreta:In our next session, which I will lead from a much
more reliable location than in a moving vehicle on the highway, I will
talk about a very simple, almost no-brainer tactic I call the RLM or
Reflective Learning Moment (I made it up!). I simply stop all activity
inor out of class, and ask students what does the current moment
suggest about their learning. They make fun of me, but I take it as a
 Steve Gilbert, TLT Group:Wow!  Lots of good suggestions!
 Frances Webb, Excelsior College:Thank you, John!
 John Zubizarreta:Oh, oh. Just noticed that the USB broadband modem
must be eating up my battery. Getting low. If I fade, sorry.
 Steve Gilbert, TLT Group:Model from 1994 - still "timely" - once
again confirms that even when we are making progress in neuroscience,
cognitive science, etc. there is not and never will be a "Moore's Law
for Human Learning" the way there is the "Moore's Law" for info tech!
 Barbara Millis:I like something John Hertle does at the Air Force
Academy.  Students coem to class expectign to discuss a case study and
has them upfront write on an index card the key point of the case
study.  After leading the discussion, he has the students draw a line
and write the key point of the case study.  Good way to assess what
they came in with and what they leave with--feedback is good for both
the students and the faculty member.
 IrinaIvliyeva, Missouri S&T:Amen to that!
 Steve Gilbert, TLT Group:JOHNZ -  What could possibly be a
"no-brainer tactic" [heh heh] in this context?
 John Zubizarreta:Barbara's suggestion about Hertle's idea reminds me
of the double notetaking strategy she oftenshares in conferences and
workshops. Notes on one side, notes about the notes on the other!
 IrinaIvliyeva, Missouri S&T:Do we not hear often from students:  you
gave me an f, but I spent ( more often - waisted) 3 hours doing it!
They think there is a direct correlation between the time input and
the outcome. We know this is not so!
 Steve Gilbert, TLT Group:LM  "Studying is a MODEL and a PROCESS"
 Steve Gilbert, TLT Group:
 saundra mcguire:The double note taking strategy is the Cornell
Notetaking Method. It works great.
 Steve Gilbert, TLT Group:LM:  for nursing students, esp. "long term
memory retrieval" is key task
 Steve Gilbert, TLT
 Steve Gilbert, TLT Group:LM:  Difficult to enable students to
recognize that they are supposed to be APPLYING the cognitive
strategies to their coursework
 saundra mcguire:We have to warn students that sometimes highlighting
and outlining can be passive methods.  The students have to make sure
they are doing these "minds on", and not simply just going through the
 John Zubizarreta:Just an obvious comment: remember Saundra's
presentation last week? Many very similar, parallel points about study
and reading strategies.
 Steve Gilbert, TLT Group:LM:   "Metacurriculum"  - embedding the
teaching of learning-to-learn strategies and skills within content
classes ;  teach HOW to learn as well as WHAT to learn!  [very much
similar to "Information Literacy"]
 saundra mcguire:They flipped the top two levels.  Synthesis is
creating in the new version.
 Steve Gilbert, TLT Group:?Saundra - any advice for students who
discover that they are highlighting and outlining without "minds on"?
Happens to me still!
 Kyle Songer & others @ Excelsior College:I find most of these items
can be used as the Bloomian verb in learning outcomes but
understanding should not be.
 Kyle Songer & others @ Excelsior College:It is a category, but we
need to make sure that the action verb is not understand but rather
another action that can be categorized as understanding.
 John Zubizarreta:Lost audio. Just me or others?
 Kyle Songer & others @ Excelsior College:Understand is too nebulous.
 Kyle Songer & others @ Excelsior College:and not really measurable.
 David McCurry, TLT Group:(just a momentary hiccup in her audio)
 Andrea Fernandez:I can still hear @John
 Steve Gilbert, TLT Group:SM:   avoid highlighting "blindly" by
stopping FREQUENTLY and asking themselves questions
 Kyle Songer & others @ Excelsior College:directly.
 John Zubizarreta:Okay, I'm back. BTW, I don't have a microphone, so
I'll use chat.
 Kyle Songer & others @ Excelsior College:I agree Synthethis is
equivalent to Creating or at least similar.
 saundra mcguire:YES!  Having students create questions at the
different levels of Bloom's is REALLY helpful.
 Steve Gilbert, TLT Group:LM:  "Getting Bloom to Blossom" - getting
students not only to understand Bloom's T, but also to USE it!  Lucy
provides several intro "training wheels" to help students USE Bloom's
 John Zubizarreta:There are a good number of other similar resources
available online. I think one is from Ohio's faculty developmet
center: has Bloom's levels and all sorts of questions that fit the
various levels.
 Steve Gilbert, TLT Group:Also see:'s%20Learning%20Objectives%20and%20Folktales%20of%20Northern%20NM.docx
 Steve Gilbert, TLT Group:Previous link to:  Bloom's Learning
Objectives and Folktales of Northern NM.docx.htm
 John Zubizarreta:I do the same Goldilocks exercise but with novels or
stories in my lit. classes. One question, for example,  "of all the
characters in   The Great Gatsby, which would you choose as best
friend and why?"
 Steve Gilbert, TLT Group:LM:   "Learning to Learn"  WITHIN different
discipline areas;  how to STUDY and WRITE in different discipline
 saundra mcguire:This site is REALLY AWESOME!!!!  Students love it!
 Barbara Millis:I wouldn't go to the Great Gatsby to find a best firend!?
 Paula:This is great!
 Steve Gilbert, TLT Group:? Do students ever get confused about the
DIFFERENT learning to learn strategies from one disciipilne being
different from those in another?
 John Zubizarreta:Ah, Barbara, you'd be the kindof student I would
cherish: a real troublemaker! Gotta love 'em!
 Steve Gilbert, TLT Group:? How do you help students be
Meta-meta-learners vis a vis deciding which strategies to use in which
 saundra mcguire:Steve, I haven't found that to be the case.  The
overall learnng to learn strategies are not too different.
 Steve Gilbert, TLT Group:LM:  site includes studnet reviews of the material!
 Paula:Would you show the previous resource slide one more time - please
 Kyle Songer & others @ Excelsior College:Thank you for this part II
of Metacognition presentation.  Great stuff.
 IrinaIvliyeva, Missouri S&T:Ever since I introduce your web site to
my students, Lucy, they love it! especially the assignment calculator.
 Thank you so much for keeping the site alive!
 Andrea Fernandez:Thank you. is full of great resources.
 David McCurry, TLT Group:The recording of today's session will be
available to workshop participants at this address:
 John Zubizarreta:Some of you might want to visit my college's
"Writing in the Disciplines" site on our web page under Women's
College, then Academics. Includes samples of writing assignments,
assessment strategies, and models in different disciplines---all
developed by faculty mentored one-on-one by a colleague in English who
directs the program.
 Paula:great part 2, thanks
 Nancy Calsolaro Smulsky:Excellent! Thank you Lucy!
 Betty Hurley-Dasgupta:Thanks!
 Kyle Songer & others @ Excelsior College:Thank you David.
 John Zubizarreta:Thanks, Lucy. I didn't even get car sick while
working on laptop in moving car!
 Sharon Aronovitch:Wonderful information. Thank you.
 Terry Conry:Thank you very much.   Take care everyone.
 Nancy Calsolaro Smulsky:You are too funny  John!
 saundra mcguire:Thanks so much, Lucy.  This has been very helpful.
 IrinaIvliyeva, Missouri S&T:Unfortunatly, I have to leave for another
meeting. THANK YOU TO ALL!
 Steve Gilbert, TLT Group:LM -  students encounter conflicts among
depts (e.g., MLA vs. APA style!)
 Nancy Calsolaro Smulsky:See you next time.
 Paula:we're finally standardizing and actually moving to APA now
 John Zubizarreta:Testing documentation style? Why? So many resources
available, plus styles seem to change regularly, which frustrates even
 Steve Gilbert, TLT Group:LM:   If each discipline is explicit in
suggesting strateiges to students, then the students don't have
 Paula:by all - see you next week
 Steve Gilbert, TLT Group:Thanks y'all!
 saundra mcguire:Another helpful site is  There are
lots of YouTube videos on specific topics.
 Juanita Painter:Dr. Mcguire, where can I access the slides from last
week's webinar?  I was an attendee.
 John Zubizarreta:Y'all probably know these already, but for
documentation styles, see Purdue's OWL site (easy to Google) or
Bedford St. Martin's site.
 Steve Gilbert, TLT Group:LM:  if the collge/univ has a Learning
Center it can help students who master some cognitivbe strategies for
some disciplines and then encounter courses where there is no guidance
about learning strategies
 Steve Gilbert, TLT Group:LM:  Collges getting rid of Learning Centers
because "they don't need them" [SWG editorial:  probably mroe likely
explanatin - Budget problems!]
 Steve Gilbert, TLT Group:LM:  students can use
even if no local resrouce or center!
 John Zubizarreta:Yes, Lucy, elimination of learning centers and
"developmental" reading and writing courses is a trend I see, too,
usually subterfuge to "hide" an institution's population of
underprepared students. Sad, actually.
 Joy Mark:will the slides for each sessions be posted apart from the
archived recordings?
 Barbara Millis:Thanks everyone!
 Steve Gilbert, TLT Group:Saundra:   Many institutions eliminating
"developmental educ" but more instiutuions are adding Learning Centers
- esp. in SACS region
 Beck Andre @ Lynn U:thank you all!
 Steve Gilbert, TLT Group:Would be VERY interesting to see which trend
is dominating!
 John Zubizarreta:Saundra's comment about learning centers reminds me
of a growing trend to establish "leARNNGN commons" which combine
learning /teachiing center work.
 saundra mcguire:See you next week.  :-)
 Joy Mark:(I didn't see Saundra's slides from last week on the archive
site, just the chat transcript - that's why I was asking)
 Barbara Millis:Sadly, we have a workshop schedueld in conflict with
John's presetnation.
 John Zubizarreta:I'll be there. No moving cars nextweek!
 David McCurry, TLT

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