Tuesday, March 06, 2012

What's Still Good About Lectures? FridayLive! 3/2/2012 Chat Transcript #TLTGFrLv

This is an abridged transcript of the session - What's Still Good about Lectures?

------------------------------- (03/02/2012 13:41) -------------------------------
David McCurry, TLT Group: Welcome to Friday Live!

Bonnie Mullinix, TLT Group: We love to hear where you are from (institution, location) and your role.... and always (whenever): your interests in TLT Group & this session

Bonnie Mullinix, TLT Group: Home base Web Pages: www.tlt.gs/tltswg

Bonnie Mullinix, TLT Group: www.tlt.gs/necselfdecept

Irina Ivliyeva, MissouriS&T: There is nothing wrong with the lecture as format!  If  the lecture is student-focusd, adn not instrucrto-focused, it is thill a very effective tool.

 ------------------------------- (03/02/2012 14:17) -------------------------------

Sharron L Terrell: Lecutres facilitate focus on important concepts

Steven Volk: Lectures can be good to the extent that they engage the students - you can read your students and know what is working and what has put them to sleep.

Leo: Lectures where consensus is actively pursue between students and instructor regarding a course topic

Eric Werth: I like short lecture (15min) followed by activities/student interaction.  I sometimes will follow up with more instruction/lecture.

Cindy Kump, University of Saint Francis: My high school history teacher was great. He didn't 'lecture,' he told stories.

Kathryn Rhodes -- RSCC: Lecctures that ask for student interaction -- the Socratic method

Gwen Rodgers: I enjoy lectures that I relate to in some way... interesting story or illustration that makes the point

Irina Ivliyeva: the best lecturers I have learned from we good story tellers. They new how to factor in their personal experiences into the content material.

Olena Zhadko: It works for some subject areas

Jane Marcus, Stanford University: good lectures take you on a narrative journey through the material with the message/lesson the lecturer has crafted

Frederick Winter: Good:  incorporate difference between oral and written scholarship, are delived with sense of performance, structured in way to reinforce a relatively limited set of points.

Sharron L Terrell: can illustrate complicated concepts

Leo: Authentic learning matched to authentic teaching

Irina Ivliyeva: Oh, the power of the pause!

Sam Eneman, Univ. of North Carolina Charlotte: the trick is to wait and not worry about silence until someone asks a question

Bonnie Mullinix, TLT Group: enjoy lectures that I relate to in some way... interesting story or illustration that makes the point

Bonnie Mullinix, TLT Group: can illustrate complicated concepts

Arun Nambiar,  California State University-Fresno: I agree with you, Sam Eneman...I often wait long enough until some one speaks up!

H Stephen Straight, Binghamton University-SUNY: Etymology reminds us that the earliest lectures consisted of merely reading a book aloud to book-less (or even illiterate) pupils. Even the most reactionary defender of lectures today would reject this reading-aloud model. So, yes, the (old-fashioned) lecture is (or deserves to be) dead; long live the (remodeled 21st-century)

Leo: A good lecture is actually several mini-lectures

Wesley: If the lecture, or talking head, is such an evil practice why are people listening to this lecture?  When we omit the lecture we are telling approximately 20% of our students that their preferred method of learning is not acceptable.  As an audio learner I am more comfortable with a lecture of some kind.  I believe lectures should have some sort of variation to prevent nodding off.

Examples of BAD Lectures
Kathryn Rhodes -- RSCC: Monotone voice with a professor who read the powerpoint slides.

Cindy Kump, University of Saint Francis: The worst thing is when the speaker isn't interested in their topic.

Rita Mitchell: Evening course 4-5 hours long, Information Science course, lecturer just read his powerpoint slides.

Frederick Winter: Bad:  what KR wrote:  read the paper in a monotone

Sims Kline, Stetson University, FL: As a high school junior, I was visiting a famous college, in hopes I would be admitted there (I wasn't, unfortunately), I was able to sit in on two lectures.  One, by the legendary Oscar Handlin, economist, was quite amazing.  At the end of his lecture, there was spontaneous applause.  I asked my student guide was this typical--applauding at the end of the lecture--and he said: "Absolutely."  How rare is that as regular practice in academe ?

Gwen Rodgers: I don't like boring lectures that drone on and on with facts and figures or if the presenter appears nervous it makes me nervous

Wesley: I hate the um's and studders.  That is very distracting.

Maureen Greenbaum: See top answers to google of  radio works lecture

Caterina: Handing out copies of the over heads before the lecture starts.

Eric Werth: Bad: A lecturer who goes through the material with no regard for student attention or level.  I have had some professors who appeared to just go through what they always had regarless of the level of the learners in class.

Barbara: 2010 History instructor reading his notes, seldom asking for questions, or even trying to get any discussion going.

Irina Ivliyeva: The worst lecturer I  had the following opening: Only God knows this subject well  to get an A in  this course; I know for a B, dont even hope to gemore that a C.  Note: I got a B in his course :)

Sam Eneman, Univ. of North Carolina Charlotte: Speaking of Socrates, I had to chuckle at this one: Socrates fails teacher evaluation http://t.co/XzrtaGUG

Leo: A lecture that does not take into consideration the impact of the classroom ecology on the way the lecture is presented.

Sharron L Terrell: Bad Lecture:  the lecturer sits the entire time and delivers in a monotous tone

Frederick Winter: Sidebar issue - the good and bad PowerPoint practices that accompany lectures.

Bonnie Mullinix, TLT Group: does not take into consideration the impact of the classroom ecology on the way the lecture is presented.

Robert Voelker-Morris: I like audiobooks!

Caterina: Instructors speak more than 20 minutes and does not break.

John Steward: I remember a graduate school professor who was particularly detached from his students.  He told us "My job is not to entertain you."  He  did not realize that  we wanted to be engaged.

Sally Gilbert, TLT Group: entertainment does not equal enagagement

Caterina: John, that is key the difference between entertainment and engagement. Some instructors want to entertain not engage

Denise Domizi, UGA:  There are conferences still where the standard/expectation is for presenters read their papers.

Caterina: Lecturing is all about telling a good story.

Sam Eneman, Univ. of North Carolina Charlotte: yes, telling a good story that relates directly to the material

Suzanne deLong, Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University: The lecturer should be interested if not fascinating by the subject

Danielle: I also think linking the material to real world experience or demonstration of theories

Caterina: Sam there are times I use complementary stories to make my point

Sims Kline, Stetson University, FL: I believe a sincere smile and frequent eye contact go a long way in making a lecture engaging and listenable.

Frederick Winter: another yucky factor--lecturer didn't keept to rational time limit (ever sit thorugh a 2-hour talk by someone who was overly impressed with his/her own voice and topic?)

Caterina: Sims I believe that is creating one's presence

Sims Kline, Stetson University, FL: Yes, the persona of the lecturer is important---and first impressions are indeed important....

Leo: Not allowing audience to be engaged with the topic

H Stephen Straight, Binghamton University-SUNY: A bad Power Point is far worse than no visuals at all.

Robert Voelker-Morris: I'm not going to argue with any of this really, for I agree with almost all the comments BUT what about the instructor who has content they have to present on that is not something they are all that interested in AND they have to get it across for the students to move on in their class requirements.  It is a huge challenge for us in faculty development.

Eric Werth: In my opinion, the better the instructor is, the less important "visuals" are.

Gretchen: I think people misunderstand what the term "visuals" refers to.  A visual to me is a strong graphic or image that conveys or strengthens audio

Danielle: or a powerpoint that does not relate to what is being said

Caterina: Stephen I thinl power points should be banned

Irina Ivliyeva: We all have  edured  our share of BAD powerpoints..

Sims Kline, Stetson University, FL: A new caategory:  "The blended lecture.....for blended learning..." ?

Leo: We should be promoting visual literacy in our students

David McCurry, TLT Group: I often used that clip from the movie to open discussion about presentation, lectures and teaching.

Kathryn Rhodes -- RSCC: Pressures to CHANGE

Frederick Winter: Vint Cerf:  "Power corrupts, PowerPoint corrupts absolutely."

Steven Volk: (Oberlin College): The pressure (if you want to call it that) is to use what the research tells us about student learning and craft lectures around it.

Leo: Flip the lecture

Sharron L Terrell: the admin is strongly encouraging faculty to modify their classroom delivery techniques

Gretchen: I agree with Leo on the visual literacy piece.

Sharron L Terrell: can't say the desire is for an extreme transformation...

Sam Eneman, Univ. of North Carolina Charlotte: Ben Stein as Boring Econ Teacher:http://youtu.be/dxPVyieptwA

H Stephen Straight, Binghamton University-SUNY: Robert, with all respect, a desire to "get it across" is seldom well met by a lecture with "content [the lecturer has] to present".

Kathryn Rhodes -- RSCC: Inverted or flipped classroom

Eric Werth: The Chronicle of Higher Education had a good article on flipping the lecutre a couple of days ago.

Irina Ivliyeva: the only pressure I feel is my own; I like to test different methods of delivery...

Leo: The extension of the learning space outside the clasroom provides the pre-lecture experience that leads to a more productive lecture experience.

Sharron L Terrell: Leo what did you mean "Flip the lecture"?

Kathryn Rhodes -- RSCC: Student engagement by case studies

Steven Volk: (Oberlin College): I do flip my lectures, but it takes a tremendous amount of time to do that; can't expect it from everyone. Better to work gradually to take advantage of what we know makes the lecture work (e.g. short periods of lecture followed by writing, discussion, etc.).

Sims Kline, Stetson University, FL: As institutions include more online teaching, the "traditional" lecture will be less used....right ?

Bonnie Mullinix, TLT Group: How 'Flipping' the Classroom Can Improve the Traditional Lecture: http://chronicle.com/article/How-Flipping-the-Classroom/130857/

Kathryn Rhodes -- RSCC: Learning Objectives and Open Educational Resources

Sally Gilbert, TLT Group: @ Sims-  doesn't look like that's the only shift.  Seems like it goes the other way too.

Leo: Flipping the lecture is were the lecture takes on the expereience of a discussion section.

Bonnie Mullinix, TLT Group: @ Steven Volk - as with any innovation in teaching, best to start small... and move forward bit by bit.

Robert Voelker-Morris: @ H Stephen = Yes I think I kind-of implied that didn't I?  But it is when those faculty come to us and they feel locked into a certain content they need to get across and they see all this other stuff as overwhelming and then just fall back on getting it across.  How do we motivate them to engage in the stuff they are presenting on?

Frederick Winter: I have a question about context:  how do you effectively "flip" the lecture or shift to other format when you are teaching an intro course with an enrollment of +150 students (well, actually as many as 800, which is what I've occasionally seen for History 101 on big R1 campuses)?

Steve Gilbert, TLT Group: Saundra McGuire et al  Metacognition - PRS - getting students to PREPARE for class meetings and read more effectively - also see OLI workshop info http://tlt.gs/metabetta

Sims Kline, Stetson University, FL: You might think that an first-year language course would be more likely to be more traditional lecture.  We have a brilliant teacher who is totally engaged  when he is in the classroom...his techniqe is to integrate really helpful graphics, video, etc. and F2F with individual students in the class, drawing them out.  It's quite a performance to watch.

Leo: Ini large classes you can use PRS along with JIT techniques couple with Think-Pair-Share exercises.

Steve Gilbert, TLT Group: Anupholsteraphobia

Bonnie Mullinix, TLT Group: And Irina's - challenging oneself to change and keep changing

Caterina: Is flipping the lecture assuming the students have prepared and you can engage them with examples and experiential exercises?

Leo: Yes. Flipped classes requires students to do outside the lecture work . we used to call it homework

Caterina: Sim "classroom...his techniqe is to integrate really helpful graphics, video, etc. and F2F with individual students in the class, drawing them out.  It's quite a performance to watch."  Are the students engaged or entertained?

Steven Volk: Flipping does assume that students are taking responsibility for their own learning. But look at it this way: if you bring them into a 75 minute non-stop lecture, they will be asleep and (duh) not engaged. By putting them in charge of their own learning and seeing others engaged, they will come alone...slowly.


Leo: Lecture should challenge the student in their beileifs and to stand by their opinions in a public venue.

Steve Gilbert, TLT Group: Ender's Test;  Pizza-like courses -  If you can "deliver" it, you probably don't own it and you certainly don't control what happens to it after it leaves your direct control

H Stephen Straight, Binghamton University-SUNY: Pressure to teach larger classes leads many to give up on trying to engage students and instead to try merely to entertain them, even though entertaining lectures have not proven to be as effective in promoting learning as less-entertaining but more engaging small-group work and open discussion.

Jane Marcus, Stanford University:  see this from Stanford News service: Stanford faculty collaborate to improve online education - news.stanford.edu/news/2011/june/improved-online-courseware-062811.html

Steven Volk: One thing I do (in a flipped situation) is when we're about to break into small groups ask those who haven't done the reading to raise their hands and wait until the groups are formed before joining one. That way they can't dominate a small group (not having done the reading), and they also don't like to be put in that situation, so will increasingly do the reading.

Frederick Winter: I don't remember where I first heard the old saw that in a lecture, the audience will listen to the speaker for the first ten minutes, try to listen for the next ten, and then give up and fantasize about sexual engagements with the other members of the audience thereafter.  I do remember that it was Tony Carenvale who pointed out that the continued engagement of lectures in the old format in light of the above may be related to the fact that something around 90% of higher ed faculty identify themselves as "above average" lecturers. 

 ------------------------------- (03/02/2012 14:46) -------------------------------
Kathryn Rhodes -- RSCC: Shorten the lectures and have students complete assessments on concepts using discussion or case studies

Sally Gilbert, TLT Group: Do people on your campuses say "Lecture is bad"

Cindy Kump, University of Saint Francis: The pressure to change originally came from myself-I was just about to put myself to sleep!

Irina Ivliyeva: I am successfully fighting our Tech people who pressure me to use new  tools  every semester. My policy - at least 4 semesters then try something new

Leo: The lecture is dead! -- long live the lecture!

Kevin Geedey, Augustana University: Yes, some at our college say lecture is bad

Sharron L Terrell: Implicitly the message is "lecture is bad"

Kevin Geedey, Augustana University: unfortunately this alienates folks who might otherwise be fellow travelers.

H Stephen Straight, Binghamton University-SUNY: Pressure to kill the lecture, based on evidence of its ineffectiveness, has led some to prepare brief (7-10 minute) videos students watch (and take quizzes on) before the "lecture" meeting, which is then used for small-group application of the conceepts introduced in the videos.

Sally Gilbert, TLT Group: Aren't TED talks really lectures?

Sims Kline, Stetson University, FL: Within a course, surely there are class meeting times which are appropriate for a fairly "traditional" lecture format (with some interaction and engagement) and some sessions much more intereative.  My impression is that many faculty structure their couurse syllabus around this model.

Leo: Yes but they are only 15 min or less

Carol Hobaugh: or one could call them speeches...

Frederick Winter: Following Steve's comment on "identifying the changes":  Pending Congressional approval, the U.S. Department of Education is preparing to invest more than $50 million in programs that would enhance student degree (certificate, AA, BA) completion.  Funding will be predicated on demonstrably successful approaches to student success.  Grant deadline will be early 2013, program title "First in the World." 

Bonnie Mullinix, TLT Group: I'm not sure we've made reference to "Lecturettes", but this is what I think still have a place in instruction. Lecturettes being no more than 15-20 min max... Lectures being longer than that (and thus exceeding the attention span of most learners).

Sally Gilbert, TLT Group: what makes a speech different from a lecture?

Leo: Lectures in the traditional sense create cognitive load that begs the ability of a lecture being an efficient learning mechanism. Cognitive load studies (Sweller et al) are not broadly promoted to faculty to deal with effiicency in learning (and teaching)

Bonnie Mullinix, TLT Group: @Fred - thanks for the grant update - good news that what we know about learning is starting to impact grant-funded initiatives/opportunities.
 ------------------------------- (03/02/2012 14:53) -------------------------------
Irina Ivliyeva: I think Mark Twain said it best:" If you stand still, you fall behind".
 ------------------------------- (03/02/2012 14:55) -------------------------------
Leo: What is the measures we are using to determine that the way we are teaching is an effective way to deliever information (knowledge)

Bonnie Mullinix, TLT Group: @Sims - you are right about the need for a) variety, b) strategic selection of technique, c) attention to content, context and flow.  All of these design issues are important to consider (and engage faculty in considering).  There is a place for lecturettes within a cornucopia of options throughout a semester/term.

Jody Bowie: Keeping students engaged, making lecture interactive.

Sims Kline, Stetson University, FL: What Do Students Really Think About Our Teaching: Do We Know ?

Irina Ivliyeva: The probllem is finding balance between the old good practices and the new innovative resources for teaching. I

Wesley: Attitudes are the biggest problem with making change.  Most people don't want to change.

H Stephen Straight, Binghamton University-SUNY: PP: Presenting problem: How can we best structure blended (online/F2F/large-group/small-group) learning environments based on proven methods for maximizing learning?

Steven Volk: How do non-cognitive scientists take to heart the SOTL lessons as we create an environment for student learning

Kathryn Rhodes -- RSCC: Blended learning / blend of synchronous and asychronous use of time and tools

Irina Ivliyeva: correct- do not fix what is not broken...

Sims Kline, Stetson University, FL: Here's a presenting problem:  Answering the Emperor's Clothes Question: Do We Really Know What Students Think About Our Teaching ?

Steve Gilbert, TLT Group: Reclothe the emperor!

Sims Kline, Stetson University, FL: We can't just rely on "teacher evalutions" at the end of each term...those measures are too-boilerplate, but do capture some rich detail....

Eric Werth: How do you deal with faculty that believe that "newer" teaching techniques such as online or blended courses go against the traditional vision of the institution?

Jane Marcus, Stanford University: there's no time to find out what the students think of our teaching - the technology train has left the station and we must accommodate to the new ways that today's students are learning and communicating

Bonnie Mullinix, TLT Group: @Eric - very interesting.  Is yours a primarily residential and/or liberal arts context?

Leo: There is a role for traditional and non-traditional presenting faculty. Change occurs gradually as new faculty come up through the ranks.

Sims Kline, Stetson University, FL: Yes, so let's get more serious about students' "information and learning behaviors" they inhabit worlds we think we understand, but I wonder......?

Eric Werth: Those I am thinking about is liberal arts and yes, primarily residential now.

Bonnie Mullinix, TLT Group: LMS=Learning Management System

Sally Gilbert, TLT Group: PP: how can/should we respond to the "technology imperative?"

Sims Kline, Stetson University, FL: More articles appearing these days re "library ethnography" -- in-depth field studies of who students approach information and research.

Jane Marcus, Stanford University: per Leo's comment -- there are things we can do to encourage adoption of new tools and practices - make things easier, promote social learning among faculty, etc.

David McCurry, TLT Group: That link will get you to the recording of this session, available after we end the recording today.

Bonnie Mullinix, TLT Group: @Eric - this makes sense.  This is the setting where fully online does not make sense.  However, hybrid (blended) course can... and/or supplemental can be great because online discussion can allow deeper and broader discussion than what can sometimes be accomplished during a single session. That's one argument I have successfully made (supplement - don't replace).

Steve Gilbert, TLT Group: http://tlt.gs/tltswg

Laney Mobley, Kilgore College: Thanks, LMobley it is helpful to know these issues are more widespread than I realizes

Bonnie Mullinix, TLT Group: I don't think it's possible to make too many chat posts ;-)

 ------------------------------- (03/02/2012 15:10) -------------------------------
Maureen Greenbaum: are you using http://ifttt.com/ for the blog to Tweet?

Bonnie Mullinix, TLT Group: Stephen - you only see the mic when you have been given audio rights.  Do you want to speak? (if so, say here in chat &/or raise your hand and we'll give you mic priveledges).
 ------------------------------- (03/02/2012 15:13) -------------------------------
Bonnie Mullinix, TLT Group: Current Subscribers:http://www.tltgroup.org/subscription/currentsubs.htm

Bonnie Mullinix, TLT Group: STEVE - Note that Stephen Straight also wants to try his mic.

Bonnie Mullinix, TLT Group: Here's the more direct link to subscriber list: http://tltgroup.roundtablelive.org/CurrentTLTGsubscribers

Bonnie Mullinix, TLT Group: Here;s the information about membership types:  http://www.tltgroup.org/SubscriptionN.htm
 ------------------------------- (03/02/2012 15:16) -------------------------------
Sally Gilbert, TLT Group: $450

Sally Gilbert, TLT Group: $450

Sally Gilbert, TLT Group: individual membership is $75

Sally Gilbert, TLT Group: instituional membership is $995

Bonnie Mullinix, TLT Group: All events:  http://tltgroup.roundtablelive.org/events

Bonnie Mullinix, TLT Group: It Takes Librarians and Faculty: Using Project Information Literacy to Improve Student Research Skills: http://tltgroup.roundtablelive.org/events?eventId=441910&EventViewMode=EventDetails

Sims Kline, Stetson University, FL: Thanks, Sally, for posting the individual membership amount.

Jane Marcus, Stanford University: I think the presenting problem for next week should be some combination of the following comments:ONE Irina Ivliyeva: The probllem is finding balance between the old good practices and the new innovative resources for teaching. TWO IWesley: Attitudes are the biggest problem with making change.  Most people don't want to change.THREE H Stephen Straight, Binghamton University-SUNY: PP: Presenting problem: How can we best structure blended (online/F2F/large-group/small-group) learning environments based on proven methods for maximizing learning?

Robert Voelker-Morris: I did one with a large course and had them "journal" all the way through, so I presented at times, had them discuss (think pair share, silent writing, and draw too, and thought it worked out wonderful.  Felt it was active and also I was able to present the needed information/content.

Sharron L Terrell: Thank you for an informative session

Robert Voelker-Morris: The journal also forced them to take notes!

Eric Werth: I suppose that I would consider it a lecture, but I like the talks that Ken Robinson gives, such as that on TED.  I enjoy not only what he discusses, but that he also includes personal stories, stories about those he has met, and that he makes it humorous.  It makes it easier to listen for a longer period of time without losing interest or feeling "bored".
 ------------------------------- (03/02/2012 15:23) -------------------------------

Sally Gilbert, TLT Group: seems like they are no longer than 18 minutes

Bonnie Mullinix, TLT Group: @Eric - we had an interesting session on using TED Talks as the basis for an online Conference experience for students.

Eric Werth: Bonnie.  That session sounds interesting.  I know teachers who use TED or YouTube/YouTube EDU.  Also, sites like Khan Academy can be a good way to play a video segment and then use the content as a discussion point.

Bonnie Mullinix, TLT Group: The TED talk timings can be longer, but are generally shorter.  They fit with the  Lecturette (don't talk too long) timing.

Eric Werth: If you had a longer video clip, you could always pause the video, discuss, and then start the clip again to break up the "longer than 15 minute" video.

Steve Gilbert, TLT Group: JM:   New Balance - Living with Innovation -

Steve Gilbert, TLT Group: Blended Model -  Lecture/Online/Small Group/

Bonnie Mullinix, TLT Group: Bringing TED to Class - Hosting Virtual Conferences Home Base (Google Doc) Web Page:   http://tlt.gs/virtualconffrlv

Steve Gilbert, TLT Group: www.tlt.gs/AdobeCintro

Eric Werth: Thanks again Bonnie, I'll check this out!

Bonnie Mullinix, TLT Group: This is also related to our TLT Group concept of Brief Hybrid Workshops where you pick a brief e-clip (nor more than 5 min) and attache an interactive experience for a Brief Hybrid Workshop of no more than 15-20 min.

Eric Werth: Lots of great ideas.  Thanks everyone . . . have a great weekend.

1 comment:

  1. Hi, just come across this blog. I'm researching the role of narrative/storytelling in lectures and was really interested to see how much the point about storytelling came up as an intrinsic element in a 'good' lecture. To me, PowerPoint can hinder the storytelling and so I think it's a technology that hasn't really helped. That seems to come out in yoru discussion too.


What do you think?